TP-028, Nat Adderley's Work Song is now available

Author Topic: Buzz?  (Read 9174 times)

Offline xcortes

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 389
    • View Profile
Buzz?
« on: February 01, 2011, 07:27:19 pm »
Anyone else hears the buzzing sound? I've only been through reel A (twice). The music and sound is VERY good but there's a really annoying buzz an important part of the time. The buzz is not there between tracks. At first I thought I might had got a defective tape but I did some research and read that some people that purchased the 45 rpm reissue complain about the same thing. Apparently the buzz is in the master so there's not much to do. I'd love to hear others' experience and opinions.
Xavier Cortes

Offline ironbut

  • Global Moderator
  • leader in spreading disinformation
  • *****
  • Posts: 2575
  • rs1500>repro amp#1
    • View Profile
Re: Buzz?
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2011, 09:56:53 pm »
Hey Xavier,

Yes, my copy has the buzz (120Hz?) on tape one too.
I don't know the story behind it but perhaps someone here does?
It bugged me on the first (or second) playings but I block it out pretty well now and just get into the music.

It's funny, I was thinking about how many concerts I've been to (and recorded) that have those kinds of buzzes and hums and I almost never notice it till I listen to the recording later.
steve koto
 Sony scd 777es(R. Kern mods)> Vpi Aires>Dynavector XX-2mkll>Bent mu>CAT ultimate>CJ premeir 140>Magnepan 1.6qr(Jensen xover)Headphone Eddie Current Zana Deux>AT ad2000,HD800 ,Metric Halo ULN-2 (battery powered),
 HE Audio Jades

Offline jeri

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
Re: Buzz?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2011, 02:02:22 pm »
I haven't played the tape yet, but I'm disappointed to learn there is an annoying flaw.  Even if it is present in the original.  Just wondering: couldn't it have been EQ'd out during mastering of the Tape Project release?
Jeri

Offline Bruce B

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 18
    • View Profile
    • Puget Sound Studios
Re: Buzz?
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2011, 02:08:40 pm »
Just wondering: couldn't it have been EQ'd out during mastering of the Tape Project release?

Yes, most of the time it can be without affecting the the frequencies around it too much.
Puget Sound Studios
Mastering & Post Production
Seattle, WA

Offline xcortes

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 389
    • View Profile
Re: Buzz?
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2011, 02:23:10 pm »
Quote
couldn't it have been EQ'd out during mastering of the Tape Project release?

One of the rules of the TP, as I understand them, is not to process the tape in any case.

The tape is very nice even with the buzz. And Side B doesn't have it (I understand this album comes from two different 10" EPs recorded on different sessions an different studios  -both in NYC).

It is one of the best TP releases IMHO so I would recommend listening to it before judging it. You won't be dissapointed.
Xavier Cortes

Offline ironbut

  • Global Moderator
  • leader in spreading disinformation
  • *****
  • Posts: 2575
  • rs1500>repro amp#1
    • View Profile
Re: Buzz?
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2011, 04:01:10 pm »
I agree with Xavier,
In most cases, a generation of tape duplication would be added (as I'm sure the lp and digital versions). IMHO this is certainly not what the Tape Project is all about.
And even the best analog eq's do effect the overall sound and take it farther away from what can be heard on the untouched master tape. After seeing the care that was heaped on positioning the analog fader into the master dup to running master chain on the Jacqui Naylor album, I can assure everyone that these decisions aren't taken lightly!

steve koto
 Sony scd 777es(R. Kern mods)> Vpi Aires>Dynavector XX-2mkll>Bent mu>CAT ultimate>CJ premeir 140>Magnepan 1.6qr(Jensen xover)Headphone Eddie Current Zana Deux>AT ad2000,HD800 ,Metric Halo ULN-2 (battery powered),
 HE Audio Jades

Offline jeri

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
Re: Buzz?
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2011, 06:53:54 pm »
Well, I'm certainly not arguing that it's a bad tape (especially since I haven't heard it yet!).  But my initial reaction was based on descriptions like "a really annoying buzz an important part of the time" that was thought at first to be a defective tape.  And "It bugged me on the first (or second) playings".  And on news that there are complaints about the same defect in a 45 rpm reissue.

So it sounded to me like a pretty significant flaw in the original master.  I was hoping to learn whether fixing the flaw was considered for the TP release, what the trade offs were, and how it was determined that leaving the flaw as-is was the most desirable sonic result.  Steve, I believe you when you say these decisions are made carefully, but I'm curious about the details.

Also, I guess I don't understand why it would necessarily add another tape generation.  Unless it can't be done when the 1-inch master is made.
Jeri

Offline steveidosound

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 487
    • View Profile
Re: Buzz?
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2011, 10:48:36 pm »
Any 120 Hz buzz typically has harmonics that would be hard to analog EQ without affecting the program. You wouldn't want them to digitally process it would you? ;-)
Many classic recordings have things like squeaks in the drum kit or electric guitar pickup / amp buzz at certain points. They couldn't always fix or edit all of that back then. Now you can fix almost anything but do you really want to go there?
Adds authentic period character I say.
Of course, I have not heard this tape...
Steve Williams

you don't want to know what equipment I listen to...

Offline ironbut

  • Global Moderator
  • leader in spreading disinformation
  • *****
  • Posts: 2575
  • rs1500>repro amp#1
    • View Profile
Re: Buzz?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2011, 12:42:04 pm »
I don't really find the buzz a real problem. If you're anything like me with a bad case of audiomania, any little thing like that catches my attention and it really stands out for a couple of plays (mostly because I'm concentrating on it). But, once my OCD subsides and I remember what I'm really doing (listening to the music) I don't notice it and enjoy the music and sonics.
Personally, I wouldn't consider it to be a "significant" issue.

I'm sure that guys like Paul who do reissue mastering could tell you better but I'd be willing to bet that most of us would be surprised just how many master tapes have some sounds that are filtered out before we hear it.
That's all fine when it comes to your usual lp or cd but the name of the game here is to "get as close to the master tape sound as possible". And while you could insert an notch filter "without affecting the frequencies around it too much" as Bruce stated, this is a purist pursuit and that's exactly the sort of thing that we're trying to avoid here.
steve koto
 Sony scd 777es(R. Kern mods)> Vpi Aires>Dynavector XX-2mkll>Bent mu>CAT ultimate>CJ premeir 140>Magnepan 1.6qr(Jensen xover)Headphone Eddie Current Zana Deux>AT ad2000,HD800 ,Metric Halo ULN-2 (battery powered),
 HE Audio Jades

Offline c1ferrari

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
    • View Profile
Re: Buzz?
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2011, 03:58:32 pm »
I haven't noticed it...
Maybe, that's because my system's got a buzz - hehe.

I'll listen to it, some more.

Vbr,
Sam
Sam Lucero
SPQCV
:-)

Offline c1ferrari

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
    • View Profile
Re: Buzz?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2011, 10:22:42 pm »
Yes, it's certainly there...
Initially, I thought my ribbons had developed a flaw.
Sam Lucero
SPQCV
:-)

Offline docb

  • Administrator
  • leader in spreading disinformation
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
    • View Profile
    • Bottlehead Corp.
Re: Buzz?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2011, 11:38:31 pm »
I dunno about the rest of you, but I certainly enjoy listening to music with a slight buzz.
Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President for Life, Bottlehead Corp.
Managing Director - retired, The Tape Project

Offline c1ferrari

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
    • View Profile
Re: Buzz?
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2011, 12:22:28 am »
Good one, Doc :-)
TP made the right choice in keeping the buzz rather than EQ or, God Forbid, digitize it out.
Sam Lucero
SPQCV
:-)

Offline MylesAstor

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 218
    • View Profile
    • Positive-Feedback Online
Re: Buzz?
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2011, 03:47:45 am »
I dunno about the rest of you, but I certainly enjoy listening to music with a slight buzz.

That's from too much time in Berkeley Dan :)

On a slightly different note, the Brown recording is not the only jazz recording to suffer from electronic issues. Try the Bill Evans Portraits in Jazz :( Hear the same thing on the 15 ips tape, original and reissued 45 rpm LPs as well as the JVC mastered CD :(
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 03:50:05 am by MylesAstor »
Myles B. Astor
Magico S5 Mk. 2/cj ART>cj GAT Series 2 preamp>Doshi 3.0 phono>VPI Vanquish/3D arm/Atlas SL/Ortofon A95 cartridges/SRA Ohio Class XL+2 base>Technics 1506/low ind. FM heads/balanced out/Doshi V3.0 tape stage>Kubala-Sosna Emotion/ Transparent Audio Gen. 5; Viero speaker cables

Offline steveidosound

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 487
    • View Profile
Re: Buzz?
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2011, 11:35:46 am »
I dunno about the rest of you, but I certainly enjoy listening to music with a slight buzz.

That's from too much time in Berkeley Dan :)

On a slightly different note, the Brown recording is not the only jazz recording to suffer from electronic issues. Try the Bill Evans Portraits in Jazz :( Hear the same thing on the 15 ips tape, original and reissued 45 rpm LPs as well as the JVC mastered CD :(

At the risk of sounding like the stereo salesman who once tried to encourage me to listen to how wonderful his new cables sounded even though one of the two channels was intermittent and cutting in and out, we forget how far we have come in the pro and consumer world in understanding and minimizing noise. Pretty much all sound equipment was expected to have a certain amount of noise back in the day. The best professional studio equipment was very good, but it is amazing how many older analog recordings have some low level buzz, hum, cutting lathe rumble, etc. not to mention tape hiss and other assorted vinyl perturbations. I guess my old ears accept and "listen through" these artifacts better than the modern digital ones, including another whole palate of digitally introduced noise spectra. BTW, how many recordings have you heard with a squeak in the drum kit?
Steve Williams

you don't want to know what equipment I listen to...